Philosophy

In June, two of our many thoughtful volunteers joined us for a webinar to talk about their very positive experiences of teaching ethics. Here’s an edited version of their questions and answers on the night.

Edwina Scerri is a psychologist, living in Wagga in the southwest of the state and teaching her daughter in Year 1.
What drew you to ethics and why do you think it’s important for children?

I’m from Sydney and I just assumed my daughter was going to be able to access ethics once we relocated to Wagga. And to my surprise, there were hardly any schools in Wagga that provide ethics. So I said, right, my daughter’s starting. I wanted her to have this opportunity, so I trained. I’m in my second year now. And I think it’s really important for her and her classmates to have the opportunity for these discussions.

Can you recall a recent topic or scenario that really engaged your students or one that got you thinking differently?

With ethics, there’s often a story. And then from that story, there’s questions and, you know, [for me as the teacher] practising being curious about what comes up. And this was a story about finding an injured bird in the wild, bringing it home, getting it well, then the child wanting to keep the bird.

And so we had this whole discussion about keeping the bird or not.

I don’t know if I’ve got the right words for it, but I could just see the kids processing and going, this is why I think I wanted to keep it, I might miss the bird [when it leaves] but the bird’s home is in the wild.

And it was just lovely. It wasn’t anything I said. It was me just facilitating the conversation and really practising being curious about what they had to say, asking ‘what do others think?’, having those prompting questions. It was, wow, powerful. It’s half an hour a week, but these kids really can get into it when they’re given that space.

And is there disagreement?

Respectful, curious disagreement. And again, it’s good to make that okay for children, that it’s okay to have a different thought or oh, now that you’ve heard someone else’s thought, how might that impact? Just having a moment to reflect and listen to someone else and then come back: I might think differently about this now. I think it’s a great platform that every child should have an opportunity to experience.

And does your daughter bring the questions home?

I’m a psychologist and I ask people questions for a living, but there’s something different in the way I interact around her now. Those questions come to me more out of curiosity now. It creates another space ready to explore and be curious rather than ‘you should think this way’ or ‘that’s the wrong way’.

My daughter and I love talking and ethics is a lovely extension. It’s her favourite time of the week.

What’s your experience with the children’s behaviour?

The training was very practical and gave me lots of ideas of what to do to manage behaviour. Last year I had a couple of students I wasn’t too sure which way to go with. I had a lot of online support, I had telephone calls and felt really supported and just tweaking a few things made a huge difference. So I know I can ring any time. There are online modules in the training. It was very practical training I could easily transfer and I still refer to my notes sometimes.

In general, a bit of redirection does a lot for kids. And once they build that connection with you, it, it seems to flow okay. I actually think they look forward to it. It’s a different way of being at school, just getting to talk and to have somebody hold that space and facilitate a discussion rather than ‘you’ve got to do this or we’ve got to do that’.

Are there any benefits to you in teaching ethics?

It’s something I look forward to doing every week. It’s probably impacted the way I carry on conversations with my daughter outside my ethics teaching. So I think it’s actually done something for me as a parent in terms of the quality of my conversations with my daughter.

Bruce Isaacs is an Associate Professor in film studies at Sydney University and teaches in his son’s school – but not his son – each week.
You’re a uni lecturer, which is obviously very different from teaching at primary level. What drew you to ethics and why do you see this work as important?

I’m the kind of person who would say everything’s philosophy, right? Our school was asking for volunteers. I was really interested in what were the alternatives being offered in schools. But more than anything, I really believed passionately that ethics should be a fundamental part of our curriculum, not just at primary school, but at high school. And so I wanted to be part of this.

I’m very interested in education at university. And I wanted to compare what we were doing to what would happen in a Year 6 classroom with an ethics curriculum. Were there continuities? And to be honest, there were so many continuities that I was shocked. The degree to which what the Year 6s were doing spoke so beautifully to what I was doing with 20-year-olds. It affirmed everything I’d hoped it would.

Can you recall a recent topic or scenario that really engaged those Year 6s?

Sure. Because they’re Year 6, I feel they are really up for high levels of uncertainty and open-endedness. Yesterday we talked about whether you should think for yourself – which on one level sounds very simple, but on another level has plagued us for thousands of years. I love the fact that the curriculum does not dumb anything down. You know what I wrestle with in them in Year 6? It’s precisely what I wrestle with in adults undertaking university education.

So the story was about Rosa Parks getting on that fateful bus. Rosa Parks in Alabama USA in the 1950s was not permitted to sit down on a bus because it was white-only sitting in a particular area – that was the law. And she (a Black woman) simply refused to stand up. Then she was escorted off the bus, taken to gaol in a police vehicle. And so the question that was posed to students to think about, which is stunning for me, is do you think she should have done what she did [broken the rule]? And what are some of the issues that opens up for us?

So we had this absolutely fantastic, engaging, but most importantly unclosed discussion about how you might respond to that. What is most memorable for me and most vital I think about the ethics curriculum is that it teaches young people to live with that degree of not-knowing.

So much of our lives growing up is find the answer to something. This lesson invites you not to find the answer, but to wrestle with the uncertainties of ‘what does this side look like? What does that side look like? And are there even only two sides to anything?’ And I’m amazed that 11-year-olds get it like that. It’s astonishing to me. I wish we did more at university, to be honest.

Is there any part of your experience with ethics teaching that’s spilled over into your day job?

Oh completely. So what I discovered with Year 6, I started teaching them two years ago, they were like sponges when it came to wanting to put forward their opinions. And what I noticed was the level of engagement, it was remarkable to me. They were highly expressive. They wanted to get into the meat of these questions. And the ethics classes are based so much on creating dialogue in those spaces and the script is incredibly supportive to enable you to create the dialogue. I lifted some of that for my university teaching, not the actual ethics script itself, because obviously I would adjust it for different levels of learning, but that dialogical mode. I leaned on that in my own university classes, especially in first year where I was teaching a critical theory course.

I can only speak from teaching Year 6, but I’ve talked to friends who do other grades and it seems to be the same experience. I can say that the dialogue that is established between the student and the teacher without telling the student right or wrong is absolutely transferable to the university space. And if anything, that’s what we require of all students at university. So I would like to think that what ethics is doing, and I see it firsthand, I see the students who come at 18 or 19 years old, from what I can tell from the Primary Ethics curriculum, ethics prepares them for a really high level of learning and critical engagement.

We often have questions about classroom management from our ethics teachers or new applicants. How do you deal with behaviour in your classroom? And do you feel the Primary Ethics training prepared you for what you found in the actual classroom?

Sure. Firstly, the ethics curriculum is amazing. Whoever designed that, kudos to that person and that team because they distilled from such complexity an amazingly elegant program. Then the training was astonishing. The help in how to manage the classroom is really great. And so I would say to anyone who wants to do it, in training you get in a team with other volunteers and you become close with that team and you do lots of mock lessons. I thought that was such fun. I loved it. I felt so much more confident then going into the class. This is not to say it isn’t challenging. I learned very early on that Year 6s are probably going to listen to you less than first or second year university students. And for that, if you have a teacher in the classroom from the school, which I do some of the time, that’s fantastic because this is a kind of authority. But if not, there are lots of support systems and I’ve got to say I feel equipped to manage the class.

Anyone who starts, I would say don’t be tough on yourself. If it’s a little bit challenging for a few weeks, the students don’t know you. And so you have to build a bit of rapport and get their trust and then slowly this relationship starts to emerge.

But the ethics training spends a lot of time on how do you work in the classroom, how do you deal with disruptive students, how do you support them and work with them. So I would say to anyone thinking of it, that’s the least of my concerns now when I go to class. I think the students are wonderful.

Have you found some personal benefit with having been through the ethics training and now teaching?

Yeah, absolutely. I love the classes. I love the bonds with students. I’ve taught at university for many years, but not in this kind of space. I know it sounds cliched … teaching is astonishingly rewarding in itself. So the act of teaching for me is as if you’re constantly engaged in a social good. So on that one level, it has been rewarding to teach people who are younger and to see that development in more stark terms in light of ethics lessons. It’s just incredibly rewarding.

I love Edwina’s word ‘curiosity’. One of the things I do research into is learning philosophies, pedagogy and curiosity is a big one. What ethics gave me in speaking to 10 to 11 year olds on a weekly basis is that when I talk to my own son, who’s eight (he does the Year 3/4 class), I try to remind myself to approach almost anything from that place of not-lip-service curiosity. What does it mean to be genuinely curious about any position? And I think that is something we have to craft in ourselves, which is why I’m so committed to ethics from very young. It’s something that needs to be developmental, all the way through your life.